For those who want to bone up on this stuff, here is a fascinating presentation that was given to the Commission. All of this teeth-nashing result in a ‘catastrophic’ 4% reduction in payout- for people who retire in 15 years at the 200% level ( the 150% numbers were not included in this part of the slide show; why? We must have these!). At 10 years 2-1 reduces pension 2.5%. And, at that, it remains an INCREASING benefit in terms of REAL dollars as compared to today’s retirees (6% more 2010-level dollars in the next decade).
The real kicker is on slide page 8; look at the graph of the required rate at 200% with a $5M lump sum. Half of ANY of the 250%! Again the 150% numbers are missing here; where are they?
Big benefit for small loss at retirement. However, like the private sector, the ‘pain’ should be shared. How about a 2.5 – 4% reduction in the Commissioner’s CURRENT pay to show leadership?
Some of the other side are calling for holding off on any decrease until some ‘study’ is done; how many times does that get used in government to kill action via delay? The numbers are there, and even Joe Jaynes and Jerry Hoagland voted with the majority for the 200% number. The numbers haven’t changed since.
Again: WHERE ARE THE 150% NUMBERS??
Funny, Mike, you do not state that the average retirement benefit is only 22,000. Four percent may seem a small amount, but when I retire every dollar will count. Thanks for trying to take money from my outrageous retirement of only 22,000!!!!!
JH, that benefit is based on the average working life of only 18 years with an average retirement age of 62. With average life expectancy, the benefit will be paid for significantly longer than the time spent earning it. Lastly, under even the 200% model, it GROWS 6% over the next 10 years in REAL dollars.
Jimbright speaking of life expectancy, look up the life expetancy of a career law enforcement officer as compaired to that of the average person, i will save you some time, its around 15 years less than the average. As for retirement the average officer dies 5 years into retirement.
Mike what happened to all the talk of total compenseation. Where is that 100-200 thousand dollars that 500 “Priviliged Class” county employees will make, and that sir is not an exageration. Its not in the report, that should send a message to you guys that Self has not been compleatly honest. You sir are now changing the face of the argument from how can the county afford this retirement plan to how do we justify slashing their retirement. and this pain should be shared idea is GRADE A bologna. What about your 3rd principal of personal responsibility, whats personaly responsible about spreading pain. You are begining to sound like a DEM but instead of spreading wealth you want to spread pain, that will sure help the ecenomy,everybody get in line and get your soup. I’M WITH YOU on the furture indebtedness but your county goverment is not in debt, $115,000,000.00 in surplus and adding every year, the only property tax rate change in the last 17 years has been a reduction, in todays Dallas Morning News the commisioners gave away $500,000.00. If we are in danger of going into debt how can you entertain the idea of a tax reduction and $500,000.00 awards. Is it an investment in the county ? If so, what do you call being able to hire quality staff ? If you can show some “THE SKY IS FALLING” numbers (and dont compair us to WASHINGTON) I could entertain a reduction in benefits idea but its just not there. Don’t be afarid to see what you see.
Never used the word ‘outrageous, nor ‘privileged class’, ‘Sky is falling’ nor anything else like that. This is the classic case of attempting distraction, so as not to discuss that fact that, even at 200%, this is an INCREASING benefit in REAL dollars (adjusted for inflation) over time. Can’t say I know many people these days getting ANY single benefit INCREASING over time.
I can certain compare the ATTITUDE I’m seeing to some in Washington. And, as I’ve shown, this reduction of matching is far from the ‘Sky is Falling’ loss to the employees that your side seems to be treating it as. But the future picture of doing it- with a $5 million lump sum payment- is significantly better. Of course, we DO need to look at the 150% numbers in the same light.
Im sorry if i implied that you used those words. Judge Self said that he did not want to create a privileged class when he put out to you guys that 40% of current county employees would make more in retirement than when working and that 500 employees would make 100 to 200 thousand a year in retirement.Now if those statements were true i could understand folks being upset but that just isant so and now you have the figures to see that. Again, total compensation. If the benefits are cut, what will attract quality staff, salary does not compair to that of surrounding police departments. If you stuck around to hear the Sheriff speak at the last hearing you would have heard that the current opening in the partol division has had 4 applicants since the job came open. McKinney PD does not have an opening and they have 300 apps on file just waiting on an opening. I dont know about your job but im sure you want quality staff and not someone just warming a seat. All im saying is that there is no golden spoon in our mouths and there will never be.(unless i win the lotto, but i dont play so im sure i wont.) I think our consertive county goverment has done an oustanding job considering the market conditions.
First time I heard those numbers, I knew they were the theoretical ones and extremely unlikely to ever occur. The fact that they even THEORETICALLY possible is noteworthy, but not the driving force. However, it would be interesting to know specific retirements, such as Jerry Hoagland’s, and long-time prosecutors. They’re numbers are likely impressive, but pretty well earned.
Trust me, I’ve sat in on City Council meetings and they’re under substantial financial strain. For example, I would expect the new city manager for Plano next year to look at ALL options, including retirement adjustments (Tom never would). And they’ll need to.
The difference between 4 applications and 300 speaks of a LOT more than a retirements benefit that STILL will be in the same range.
Me and you both could probably retire with Jerry’s retirement. As for the apps, (4 vs. 300 ) your exactely right, the retirement is just a small part of the problem, salary being another, pay for experince, education, multi-lingual, etc. Thats why were so adamant about not changing our retirement. Like the old saying gos ” Money talks and bovine dung walks “. Quality staff in my openion when it comes to law enforcement and prosecution of criminals ( and all that taking ones liberity away intales) is a sound investment in our county’s future. As a law enforcement professional it makes me very proud to read things in nationaly circulated magiznes saying that Collin County is one of the best places in America to live and raise a family. We all want that to continue. On a personal note, are you going to the 9-7-10 hearing ? Although our debate has at times been sprited, and likely not over, i would like to meet you and shake your hand.
Mike, I’ve asked you time and time again to provide your sources to back up your stance of cutting county benefits. The only source I’ve seen you post, other than from Judge Self, is the TCDRS briefing that is on the Deputies Association site, linked from our Scribd account.
I know where it came from because I posted it there. How about giving credit to your source? Why haven’t you posted the other document prominently posted at http://ccdatx.wordpress.com/ such as the Public to Private Sector Compensation Study? If you’d read it, which you probably have, you’d see that Texas is in last place, in this comparison, 17.6% behind the private sector in wage differentials!
The numbers Self gave, 100-200k, are not theoretical, defined as theory, it is outright deception. These false figures are still posted on your parent site at http://www.texasteapartyalliance.org under the “Golden Parachutes for Collin County Workers” article. From what I hear, gold is heavy, which is fitting. It’s going to be quite a thud after we get kicked out of this ‘taxpayer’ airplane when we’re old and gray. I wouldn’t mind so much if I had a backup chute, like your profit sharing.
There is absolutely no justification for cutting county employee retirement benefits. Like the Employee post above said, and according to your cadence, you guys are doing nothing but spreading the hardship of a small percent of the Collin County population. Not much different than socialism spread by the left. A horse is a horse, no matter the color.
I like facts, and proof, it’s a crucial element of my job. I can’t base decisions on emotions or whether or not it will advance my career. Our decisions have real affects on real people and we must be held accountable at all times.
The facts and proof are then scrutinized by the courts and attorneys. It has to be solid or the suspect walks, even if he’s culpable. The same should apply to your accusations of unfair benefits for county employees. What you guys say and do affects the lives of real people, now and in the future. You have yet to provide any evidence, proof or facts. Just emotion. That my friend, is what makes this issue so outrageous.
Other employees and I have suggested that this issue be placed on hold until all the facts could be examined through an independent study, but it has fallen on deaf ears. Why is that? What has Keith Self and the Tea Party have to hide? As a taxpayer, and through my years of experience as a peace officer, I smell a rat, and a lot of them.
Again: Where is your supporting documents?
Supporting documentation? How about foreclosure rates? Existing commercial property values? How about talking to private sector employees and small businessmen? How about the facts from the pension presentation that shows even at 200%, the pension plan is of INCREASING real dollar value over time? How about the inherent value of halving the required rate?
Not emotion involved here; emotion would be for leaving things along. Hard economic realities OUTSIDE the government sphere is what drives this. If you can’t bring yourself to talk to people outside the public sector, why don’t you talk to the Plano City Council, who is a decade farther down the same path Collin County is headed.
Once again, how is this relevant to cutting county retirement?
-How about foreclosure rates?
SHOW ME
-Existing commercial property values?
SHOW ME
-How about talking to private sector employees and small businessmen?
I DO, EVERY DAY
-How about the facts from the pension presentation that shows even at 200%, the pension plan is of INCREASING real dollar value over time?
AND YOU QUALIFY THIS STATEMENT BASED ON, WHAT, YOUR FINANCIAL EXPERTISE?
None of this matters to you and the Tea Party, just more ‘shock and awe’.
You don’t believe in establishments or in authority structures as is evident by the lack of your groups organizational structure, local, regional and nationally.
A column in the NY Times by David Brooks pretty much sums it up, “The New Left then (1960′s), like the Tea Partiers now, had a legitimate point about the failure of the ruling class. But they ruined it through their own imprudence, self-righteousness and naïve radicalism. The Tea Partiers will not take over the G.O.P., but it seems as though the ’60s political style will always be with us — first on the left, now the right.”
Hopefully, local conservatives will wake up soon and reject your radical Libertarian ideals.
Mike O first i would like to say that it was nice meet you. The 9-7-10 hearing was alot differant from the 8-30-10 in terms of civility. I work in the Jail monitoring inmates so i have learned alot of things in the last 18 years from watching people. One of the most intersting things i noticed was that most of the Tea Party folks (not all) left after making their statements. This tells me that your group does not care about any other view but their own. Even after the powerpoint presentation dispelling all the myths about our retirement Tea Party members continued to speak of the plans unstainability, continued to compair the county to failing entities. NEWS FLASH, your county is in excelent finincal shape, these entities your camp compairs us to are no compairson at all. We, and your county have provided the facts. As Kaputt said, put your money where your mouth is. If all the forclosure rates and commerical property values are as bad as you claim how can your county give you the taxpayer a property rate decrease for the second strait year.
Nearly everyone of them left because they work for a living and were NOT given time off to participate; I had to make up the 4 hours out of the day today and left the office at 8pm after going in early, Employee. NEVER assume why people come and go; That’s something you should have learned from jail as well. I would let you know something; several of those speaking about the lack of sustainability of the fund, have managed investments for decades. The 8% required is not sustainable under current financial conditions, nor any predictable for the next few years. Over the last 5 years, the fund is in the hole. You might have paid attention to the recent numbers.
The previous meeting didn’t get as badly out of hand from our side because I worked our side of the crowd to keep a lid on it; Brett Baldwin I misjudged that night, because he’s normally one of the calmer people in the group. He’d just had his fill of crowd comments over 3 hours. I was rather surprised none of your people were working their side the same way; you might be able to work a crowd from outside, but working it from inside is a different skillset.
Ahh work, it will get you ever time. I showed up to the meeting around 2 pm, I work the 6 to 2 shift, i wasant given time off either. I think were all getting a little tired of this back and forth. I also think this years budget will be in the bag this time next week so there is little we could do no matter what happens. Im sure this issue will come up next budget season. So its been real and its been fun but it hasent been real fun. I think next year an independant entite needs to look at this issue so all this us vs. them mess can be avoided.
I had a 50 mile round trip to get in my 3 minutes; I work near Addison airport. Budget considerations will likely be more difficult next year, unless there is MAJOR economic recovery that no one currently foresees. As for the makeup of the court, I expect positions to be similar; Duncan will likely take Jerry position on the issue, Cheryl taking Kathy’s. Let’s just hope we can get tiering through before then.
Here’s an article on commercial property foreclosure; try to tell me how well we’re doing:
plus here’s a general one on DFW
As for residential foreclosures, Collin County is above average in Texas with 1 in 620, with the vast majority being larger homes. Sales differential between new and foreclosure has grown to almost 45K.
You first link is from December 22nd, 2008, it’s a little outdated don’t you think.
Here’s an article from foreclosure-support.com which states “Statewide statistics showed that the counties of Collin, Denton and Tarrant all recorded foreclosure posting declines for June 2010 when compared with the same period of a year before.”
Your second link refers to “Class C properties or miscellaneous commercial buildings”.
A Class C property is defined as: Buildings that are more than 25 years old and have not been renovated. C buildings are functionally and architecturally obsolete and are located in less desirable areas. They command the lowest rents and attract the least credit-worthy occupants. It is not likely that a C building could be rehabilitated to A status, regardless of its location.
Doesn’t sound like a huge economic hit. I could be wrong though. However, CNN Money ranks Collin County #15 in the country with the best job growth.
What’s the square footage of the foreclosed on Class C properties? I don’t know either. But, according to the North Central Texas Council of Governments (NCTCOG), completed retail properties in and around Collin County for the 2nd quarter of 2008, 1,025,000 sq.ft.
Total retail construction begun: 359,000 sq.ft.
Announced retail developments: 102,000 sq.ft.
Completed office space: 635,590
Office construction begun: 85,000 sq.ft.
Announced office construction: 72,000 sq.ft.
Industrial completed: 1,633,581 sq.ft.
Industrial begun: 1,224,000 sq.ft.
These figures don’t include the new 60,000 sq.ft. Methodist hospital in McKinney and the 332,000 sq.ft
CNN Money also says that McKinney’s employment opportunities are robust, ranking them #5 in their Best Places to Live of America’s Best Small Towns.
collintxbiz.com says: “Collin County boasts an economy and housing market that continues to exceed national trends.”
Shall I continue?
Your last link only shows nationwide foreclosures.
Nice try, and I appreciate the effort, but please, for the sake of our county, don’t apply at any local Chamber of Commerce anytime soon, for obvious reasons.
Since my response to your question isn’t being posted for ‘some’ reason, you can go here and read it http://ccdatx.wordpress.com/comments/
Kaputt, as I pointed out to you, WordPress takes comments with too many links in them and treats them as spam. Now I just got back from shopping for my charity trip to Africa next month (I will be SO glad to get amongst my kids over there after dealing with you guys.) so I hadn’t had time to dig it out of the electronic trash. SO I’ll just leave your link instead (found your overly lengthy comment, right next to the Lyme disease spam in amongst 146 others; our site is popular
). BTW: Bill Baumbach ROUTINELY deletes comments he doesn’t like, even when there are NO personal insults, etc. I haven’t taken to doing that.
However, there is a limit to the amount of time I can spend on this one issue. I am in heavy demand for my efforts to help get people elected (or to defeat sitting politicians) as well as to discuss policy. I was involved in 5 events during the Labor Day weekend. I didn’t even have these kind of political schedules 30 years ago when I was Denton County GOP Chair.
I’ve been in this ‘hobby’ for 47 years and seen every cycle you can imagine. And I’ve seen entity after entity slide down the hill into the abyss, most only propped up by massive borrowing for now. It would be nice to save one early in the process for a change.
Just so we are clear, every county employee that showed up to the public hearing was utilizing vacation leave; we did NOT get paid to attend that meeting!
Also, I think it may have been lost in the rancor that the county employees do actually work for a living, serving the needs of Collin County citizens. A county job is NOT WELFARE. We try our best to fulfill our respective missions for the good of the county citizens. Most days we succeed admirably at this mission.
Unlike a private sector job, I will never get a profit sharing bonus, I will never even get a Christmas bonus. When (not if) the economy turns around, do you think there will much of a public effort to support raising the retirement benefits or pathetic salary rates for county employees? Didn’t think so.
I’m luckier than some at the county because my husband works in private industry and he has done a great job of managing his 401(K) and stock options, so I won’t be eating cat food in my 70′s, as long as I don’t piss him off enough to send me packing, I guess. Other workers at the county may not be so fortunate.
Leslie H, I took time out of my day to come to the meeting. I had already done my tour of duty in the Jail. Like you said above i wonder if these nice folks will be advocating for us a nice raise or replacing the retirement match WHEN the economy turns around. I wouldant hold my breath.
Never thought you DIDN’T work for a living. Some of us Taxpayers had a long commute during the day just to get our 3 minutes in; mine was 50 miles. Profit-sharing and Christmas bonuses have become quite rare in most of the current private sector; I’ve seen one in the last 10 years and I’m not that atypical.
Always love the ‘cat food’ reference; normally given by people who don’t realize how pricey cat food is to cheaper human food. You see, I work with kids in Africa who would view our cat food as a nutritious delicacy compared to what they are generally living on. It’s also why I cannot use my less generous time off for speaking to the county; I’m making my long-overdue charity run to Uganda soon. I save up the money and time most people spend on regular vacations to do these trips (along with some donations from friends); it took 3 years this time.
If you’re at risk of eating cat food with an average retirement of over 22K on top of standard social Security in today’s dollars, there are either some poor choices or unusual circumstances in the background, would you not agree?
Mike i have never seen a Christmas bonus in almost 20 years because we dont get one.
ALL BS ASIDE God be with you on your charity run to Uganda, thats a truly noble cause.
Ddn’t think for a minute that you guys get Christmas bonuses; it was referenced to the private sector. Some companies DO give end of year bonuses but they are getting few and far between.
Here is some of my stuff from my last run to Uganda (and, yes, i was that skinny then; one reason I need to get back). Many of my peers spend money on nice cars; I spend my ‘hobby money’ (as limited as it is) on my kids in Uganda. Driving a clunker is a small price to pay.